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Kimo
Kimo Sep 2 '15
What should the occident do close or open all border and who can stay and who not?
billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 3 '15
Usually when we ask a question here Kimo, we give our own opinion and answer when we ask it.

That way those who answer the question have a template to follow with their answers.

In other words, after your question, go ahead and say " I think XXX is the answer because........"

what is an occident, anyhow?? 
Kimo
Kimo Sep 4 '15
The occodent are the rich countries usa, canada, europe, australia etc... Now that millions escape war zones or famine in africa or asia....


I think we cannot expulse them nor have we work for everyone, most countries refuse them Instead to fix worldwide quotas between the rich countries....

billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 4 '15
The US is rich? Maybe they don't broadcast the fact that we owe $19 Trillion ( yes, that is a T, not a B) to the Chinese in your area. Being in debt is far from having any money.

I'm all for legal immigration to the US, but people who think they can just appear here and "it will be OK" should not be here in the first place. I mean, you don't leave your door open for anyone on the street to just come inside your home and make themselves at home, do you??  I sure don't, and I think with good reason, too.

We typically do not have the numbers of people coming here that you guys in Europe and Asia have, just because of the distance involved.
Kimo
Kimo Sep 4 '15
Yes europe is still in crisis too. Tho difficult and what to do with all those peoples?
wind090
wind090 Sep 4 '15

Hey guys, calm down! I'm too drunken for an answer in the moment, but...


@ all: If you want to solve the Problem (sorry,too tired to re-correct the orthography-correction made by Windows, assuming me to write in gerrman..), you are to look for the reasons and not for the results!  (..and it would take me by now several hours to write everything down... so please expect my answer to this later! ... and be prepared it won't be patriotic and it maybe will hurt one or the other...)

billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 6 '15
That is one of the drags about being the "European Nation". Citizens from any country in the EU are allowed to travel into other countries with no papers. So technically, if the refugee is coming from an EU country, they should be allowed into another EU country.

If they are coming from Africa / Asia then that is a different story, and they need to follow standard immigration procedures. I realize it is a life or death decision, and government's can't make any decisions with speed, let alone life or death ones... so it is a tough place to be in.

Why don't the local countries that are being slammed with the terrorists get together, form an allied nation, and kiss A$$ of the terrorists??  O wow, now there is something everyone can fight about, right ??
wind090
wind090 Sep 7 '15

In my opinion the problem is a little more complex. Billy, we're not talking of people who migrate inside the EU, but of people who enter the EU from outside. (As in my opinion the EU is another problem to talk about... Should it be seen as a country like the US or should it stay an accumulation of several independent countries? In my opinion the latter won't work in the long term, as each country only wants to take the benefits and doesn't want to pay for them, like it is now...)

 

Back to the refugees:

 

What we experience right now may be something like the largest wave of migration we've had since the one that made an end to the Roman Empire! In my opinion, as I already mentioned it isn't enough to talk about whether to close the borders or not, we are to talk about the reasons for this migration!

Of course there are the people who try to escape from war, but I guess there is a much larger proportion who escape from their unbearable economic situation.  ...and of course we are to look for, where both (war & economy) find their reason. It all has a geopolitical background.

 

If we look at the unstable situation in the Near East and Mediterranean, we can of course easily point our fingers again at the US, trying to force the Russians out of the region. Nobody wants to claim people like Gaddafi, Assad  and so on would be friends of the mankind, but at least they brought stability to the region.  ...but then there was the chance to replace them by some "more democratic" (or in other words more US / West-friendly) people and any means to reach that goal was OK. So our "rich friends" from Saudi Arabia brought their money ( and their kind of reading the Quran as well!!!) like they had previously done in Afghanistan (When Mr. Reagan wanted to get out the Soviets...).  ... and what we found out later was that we had replaced the "Russian-friendly" despots by religious fanatics, inventing their kind of "democracy". (... and of course Mrs. Merkel backs that all!)

... but then there was Syria (and of course to some proportion Egypt, too), when our new "democrats" didn't not only throw out the Russians, but did tell the Christians there it would be better to them if they were Muslim...   ...and we found out it would maybe be better to us if we did "teach them our ideal of democracy a little better". So the result is a whole region in or at the border to civil war. Additionally there are our good old Turkish friends, paying some old bills to the Kurds... So what we've got is this whole region where it is extremely dangerous to live and where the whole economy and educational system is destroyed.

 

...and not to forget we've Africa! There in many countries it is much the same with US-, Russian / Soviet- and Colonial-European- induced civil wars. Additionally we bring all our overproduction of food there! (Did you ever ask yourself what happens to the parts of chicken, turkey, pork, fish, ... you don't like to eat?! The US-overproduction of wheat comes there as "US-aid" to solve end hunger in this world. In fact it those cheap American and European agricultural products make African farmers suffer hunger, as they are sold cheaper than they can be produced there. So overall we still possess our old colonies there, with the only difference: We today only care to earn money and leave the administration to the people there (as long as they don't harm our interests).

 

So what do we have? We have a large proportion of (young) people in those countries, with no real opportunity for a good education and improvement of their economic situation. We've war. ...and we've media making those people believe all they need to do to have a good life is to come here! We've a weapons industry, earning billions of Dollars or Euros or whatever.

 

What can we do to solve the problem? Of course we should send lots of the ones who managed to come here home, but we should give them enough help and education to change their home countries. Education is the only thing that can change something.  ...and of course we should stop to have (our hidden) war there! Everybody should think about how much of his own life is paid with blood over there!             

Kimo
Kimo Sep 14 '15
Hope all this won't drive us into a war as more and more neo-nazi parties will get on power - belgium holland france or scandinavians will vote for those extreme right parties.    more and more europeans voted already for them and some already govern european countries + the war against the islamic state... I see it here & more and more search refuge in those parties + tho add on top of that now the refugees and it will get worse people divided already will divide more.... Since charlie in paris i see more and more  rasism anti islam in benelux or france already some parts of dutch belgian or french cities already have up to 50-60% of islamics with many pro charia parties created...
The Forum post is edited by Kimo Sep 14 '15
billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 16 '15
ya know Kimo, you bring up some very valid points. I hadn't given that much thought to the situation, probably because it didn't affect me over here in the USA as much. ]

Now I've heard we are going to accept tens of thousands of Syrian refugees ( this is where ISIS or ISIL started, yes), and I know the Gov't here does a most crappy job at vetting people they let in. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that out of 1000 refugees from Syria, 300 or more of them are actual terrorists, or wannabe terrorists ( which can be as bad or worse).


wind090
wind090 Sep 16 '15

That's the point Billy, you worry about several thousend the whole US are to accept once. Here in Germany we get this number right now in a day or a week!


The "official opinion" (given out by the press and because of that by the gouvernment, too) is that we welcome those people here. If you talk to the people around, many are worried and most say we can't bear that many refugees, but most wouldn't say that oficially, as in Germany you're immediately called to be a Nazi if you say you're not pleased with that...


If you look a little closer, most people who arrive don't have any documents!!! Many Syrian people who can prove who they are, even say that a large number of our "Syrian Refugees" have never been to Syria. Who tells me they aren't IS-people?! Most of the people who arrive are young males (...and not the families they Show to us in TV!), capable of arriving with cellphones here. Why aren't they capable of arriving with documents?

If I would have to flee from war and to save my family, I would be pleased to arrive in a safe Country. Why do all those people risk their (and their families) lives to get on to Germany and Sweden?! ... and then, about two weeks ago, we had this incident in our refugee camp in Suhl: A man (Syrian refugee)took several pages out of the Quran and washed them down the loo. Afterwards about 70 people (Syrian refugees!!!) tried to lynch him, severely hurting him and hurting the policemen who had to save him. I don't say anybody should hurt somebodies religious feelings, but if that is the case in our society you go to the police and report that! You don't lynch anybody!   But if we get one step further, what if this desacration of the Quran was just a reaction of this man, concerning the situation that he had to flee from his home and now finds the people here he was fleeing from, given the same rights and opportunities he is given?! In my opinion, who is able to lynch somebody is able to fight for the freedom of his country, too! 

     

billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 16 '15
Funny how a story like that did not make the international news, Wind. All we see are the sob stories of how these "poor people" are being treated like animals, or worse than animals.......

Culture / religion plays a major role in both behavior, and society's laws. I completely understand where you are coming from.

I recall being in the LTA ( land transit Authority) in the Philippines to get a driver's license one day. It was 100+ ℉ and close to 100% humidity that day and I wore shorts.

The guard at the door refused to let me in, citing the shorts I had on as the problem.

I looked inside, found a few others with shorts on, and said "they got shorts on!!!"

"They are women" came the answer.

"So what? that is discrimination!!" I claimed... he laughed and told me he'd rather see their legs than mine. Lia pulled me aside and told me men were not allowed in gov't buildings with shorts on. We were even supposed to have long sleeved shirts, but that was mostly overlooked.

I wound up going to a local store, buying pants, and going back to the LTA for my license. 

Moral of the story is I was in their country, and had to follow their rules. If I did not like it, I could have left and gone back to America....
Kimo
Kimo Sep 16 '15
Yes but in a sense us uk and france by killing the dictators of those states created the problem we face now - it's like a slap in the face back - what our german friend commented about it sure is the main point of this tragedy......


The allies created the problem what now?

The Forum post is edited by Kimo Sep 16 '15
billyHill Moderator
billyHill Sep 16 '15
I don't want to get into a "blame game". But let me ask you this. Lets say you had a colony of ants or bees on your porch. You didn't want them there, so you got some bug spray and killed some of them, including the queen.....

then all the bugs start coming in your house because they have no one to follow or give them orders.....

Would you consider that your fault for killing the queen? Or would you just keep trying to kill more bugs to get the final result you want and not worry about blaming anyone??

My point is simple, you can play the "Blame game" all you want, it will not change the facts.

Do you want results? or do you want to place blame? If you are happier finding fault and placing blame, then by all means do so. It will not get you any closer to your goal. It might help you feel better, but it won't change any circumstances.

for that matter, why is the blame being placed on the nations that ousted known dictators that were God awful human rights violators?

Why can't the blame be placed on ISIS, or the Jihadist extremist Muslims that are causing all of the people to run from their lands to start with??  Are you saying that you agree with ISIS and their terrorist activities?? Maybe I am missing something.
wind090
wind090 Sep 16 '15

What to do now? With the current situation there is nothing anybody could do! First we would need to change the whole world!

First of all we would need to end all vetos in the UN-security council, so neither the US, Russia or who ever can support someone...  Then we would have to give all weapons of mass destruction to the UN only. ( If you ask me, we should go back to those times when the "leaders" were leading their troops into battle and by the way the only weapon allowed should be a stick!) Instead of weapons we should send teachers and instead of claiming to tell the only truth we should be that honest to say that we're telling our own opinion with the intention to reach our goals... 


...and the day that happens, hell feezes over!


So all we can do is wait for the next elections and wait for the new promises we allready know our politicians not to keep...


...but maybe we all should be a little less indifferent.      

Kimo
Kimo Sep 16 '15
Sure Billy you are also right - but now in your exemple now that the bees are in your house you would kill them all or try to judge or educate them...


By killing them all it makes you a worse slaughterer than their leaders and by keeping them Well terorists could creep in among them.... And in the end kill you....


My point is that the effort and money all that did cost the western world could have been used instead to help our own poors, better education welfare, work for all etc....


Sure tho everything is related to cause and effect and I hope our politicians got a lesson out of it.... And that it will serve to create a better world....

The Forum post is edited by Kimo Sep 17 '15
wind090
wind090 Sep 17 '15

Billy your example with the bugs and the bees is cute, but...


...to Play the blame game right:


You didn't fight the bugs, bees and ants that were trying with a pesticide. You used fire and now you wonder why the house starts to burn.


...or in that case the standard tactics is: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not too long ago all those "bad guys" like ISIS and so on were called "freedom fighters" by our media. It are the same "freedom fighters" our gouvernments wanted to provide weapons to bring democracy to that region (Despite of the fact that nobody of those ever spoke of democracy, they spoke of freedom or what they from their point of view claim to be freedom, which means Sharia for all!!!)...  It's the same example like the 1980's Afghanistan, when there were brave Mujahideen that were to be supported against Soviets and Communism, we now call Taliban and Terrorists...


Don't wonder if your house starts to burn if you light your barbecue with Napalm Bombs! (... you drop from a safe distance.)       

Kimo
Kimo Sep 17 '15
Well now we try to be friends with the ayatollahs to fight the IS in iraq - which as well imposed sharia and slaughter people.... Or bomb syria - IS slaughters and the dictator slaighters who will took over that country after we bombed them... New extremists? A new dictator? And if we don't like them afterwards.... Bomb them down again? It's a game without end - since biblical times that regions in war......
wind090
wind090 Sep 17 '15

Since biblical times? Remember about 500 years ago, when some people here in Europe started to interpret the Bible in a new way, the whole of Europe was in war!  May there be a relationship?


Religion itself mostly is peaceful, but people trying to get in power of people, using religion often tend to be the opposite.     

Kimo
Kimo Sep 17 '15
Between the Benelux kingdoms and france yearly around 10.000 18-20 year old all second or third generation with ordinary not very religious families decide to leave everything for the IS state. I saw the other day on TV. Still a big problem and that give wind to the neo nazi parties. That will be even worse. Plus all those refugees gives them points. And can change our freedom.
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