Vaccination of children: Will we get a measles epidemic here in Germany? | Forum

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wind090 Feb 23 '15

Today I got something really serious, I would like to know your opinion about:


Here in Germanyit is not a obligation (anymore) to get children vaccinated against diseases like measles, rubella, whooping cough and so on. Mostly it are "well educated" parents who refuse to get their children vaccinated, as they are of the opinion the vaccination would be worse than getting those diseases on a "natural way". They even organize "parties" for their children to get infected and send their infected children to school or kindergarden afterwards, to do "something good" to other peoples children, too!

I for myself could get (and do get) really mad because of such people! ...and thinking of, that today in Berlin a baby died of measles (Maybe thanks to such people...), even with our comparatively good German health care, where something like that shouldn't ever be able to happen, makes me really getting mad! In my opinion those people do commit mayhem to society!


How do you think about that? Should those people be forced to get their children vaccinated?  If they contribute to the spreading of a disease, should they be charged and taken to their responsibility? (I think they should!)     

DUribe Feb 23 '15
That is very sad! The children rights are not respected in there then...
coloradosweetheart Feb 23 '15

It's true that all states in the US require vaccinations, but they also all allow medical exemptions...if a kid has a weakened immune system, for instance.  Most allow religious or philosophical reasons as well.

Only two states do NOT allow exemptions for religious or philosophical reasons...Mississippi and West Virginia.

Most parents who choose not to vaccinate have the "herd mentality."  They think their children are safe because the majority of those around them are vaccinated, so their chances of getting a disease are pretty slim.

That's all fine and good, except for the fact that our world is increasingly becoming smaller.  Everyone is traveling everywhere, and not all countries have the same requirements as we do.  Measles is especially insidious, since one can transmit the disease up to four days before getting a rash.  If one visits a tourist attraction like Disneyworld, where people visit from all over the world, we end up with the situation we have now.  And what about those who are too young to be vaccinated?  Do we put them in danger as well?  Those with the "herd mentality" are insane in my opinion.

Wind, I'm not familiar with the parties you've mentioned with regard to measles, mumps or rubella, whooping cough, etc.  I only recently (in the last ten years) heard of "chicken pox" parties.  At one time, every kid got them.  I've heard getting chicken pox later in life is much more serious. If a kid in a social circle got sick, other parents would send their children to play with the sick kid...just to get it over and done with.  I just suffered with it alone when I was about 4-5 years old. 

I agree that parents should be held accountable for the decisions they make regarding their children's vaccinations.  Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen anytime soon in the US.  The rhetoric is that "we are a nation of individuals, not socialists."  God forbid that we should mandate anything to improve society as a whole...or penalize those that threaten it.

The Forum post is edited by coloradosweetheart Feb 23 '15
wind090 Feb 24 '15

Mmh, I had chicken pox when I was 4 or 5 as well. The only thing I remember is that I always wanted to scratch me and wasn't allowed! :(  My nephew who is 7 now allready got them twice (Yes, you read right! Twice! That's possible, even if most of us think you can get such diseases only once!)  ...and he got them twice, because there are such "nice" parents sending their childrento kindergarden, even if they know they are sick!

@Jerry: What you wrote about that guy (I refuse to call people who "create" their own data doctor, wich would hurt my own feelings as a researcher...) publishing that vaccination could lead to autism is interesting, as in fact in the case of rubella some kind of the opposite is true. If women are not vaccined (...and sadly in some, but almost a neglectable proportion of cases, even if they are :(  ) and  get infected during pregnancy this can lead to heavy disabilities of the child!  

The Forum post is edited by wind090 Feb 24 '15
billyHill Moderator
billyHill Feb 24 '15
I'm pretty sure this is the guy Jerry was talking about. I don't claim CNN to be a 100% reliable source, they slant stuff the way they want to as practically any news agency will. But if you want more facts, there are valid names and other information in this article you can search from :


FWIW, it seems that the majority of people who do not have their children vaccinated against these diseases, are mostly the wealthier of society. At least here in California. I can't speak for the rest of the world.

As Wind says, those "parties" he spoke of are very common here in California, and by invitation only.  That way "loose lips can't sink ships" so to speak.
wind090 Feb 25 '15

I guess all of those diseases can be very dangerous and are of course absolutely ugly, if you get them as adult.

As far as I know, the chicken pox usually you don't keep for your lifteme as with malaria, only in some cases this may be true. In such cases they can be mistaken with herpes I guess and may lead to things like shingles. (But I'm a geographer only and do not know that much about medicine...)  

billyHill Moderator
billyHill Feb 25 '15
"You have just got to receive this month's award for the master of understatement Billy."

I'm thinking i deserve a Razzy for that line, Jerry , Razzy's are annuals, not monthly awards

On the serious side though, as far as the topic goes. It ought to be 100% up to the parents of the children to decide to vaccinate or not. However, I believe that if they choose not to vaccinate their offspring, then when their children infect other people, they need to be held financially liable for the people they infected. Or, just have those non-vaccinated children remain in zero contact with the public until they are either vaccinated, or financially responsible for themselves.

Jstnona Feb 25 '15
Funny, Billy.  For most parents, after a few weeks of homeschooling I imagine they will be happy to have their children vaccinated and back in society LOL.
Wind, unless they have had the Shingles vaccine, two out of three people that have had Chicken Pox will contract Shingles.  The vaccine does not guarantee you will not get it, but it will be milder if you do.  Believe me Shingles can be terrible.  Very painful and I have seen patients that suffered well over a year.  And had it return. 
wind090 Feb 26 '15

Yes of course Nona, you are right, a vaccination does never mean you are safe, but only you are less endangered. ... but that's in my opinion no reason not to do it, at least for diseases that are highly infectious like measles are. ...and I do know that shingles are very painful. My mother had it two years ago, she first thought -> I don't know how to say that in English: If a gristle in your spine is in the wrong Position, pressing on the nerve, making lot of pain?!

...and Yes Billy, in that I absolutely go with you. If people did refuse to get vaccined and get ill (or even did infect themselves willingly), they shall stay at home and not threaten others! In my opinion if you know to spread a highly infectious disease and you don't avoid to threaten others it is at least (..and again don't know how to say that...) mayhem (?) if not attempted homicide! ...but in Germany it is not that easy to make someone financially liable as in the US. (...and even if, then not in the same amount!)

The Forum post is edited by wind090 Feb 26 '15
billyHill Moderator
billyHill Feb 26 '15
wind, for what it is worth ( FWIW), medical issues like these are virtually impossible in the US to hold anyone accountable for. That is the entire reason for my statement. Many other lawsuits are absolutely stupid and almost sickening for what they can get away with. This is not the case when it comes to these medical "childhood" diseases.

The shots ( vaccines) are free to those without healthcare, those with care pay a minor amount. But someone that refused to have the vaccine for either them or their children can infect dozens or hundreds of others and face no repercussions as the result of those decisions.

My thinking is, that if these people that refuse the vaccines are made to held financially liable for things like lost days of work, doctors care, hospitalizations, and other by-products of these infections... then I'd bet a whole lot of people that "don't want themselves or children" immunized, would soon change their minds. 
wind090 Feb 27 '15
I guess that would be the case! Most people here in Germany don't even think about that, as they still get their wage paid while they are sick! ...but if you run your own business, are to pay for the ones missing or just know what your wage and your missing take as costs, you surely think another way!  
Kimo Dec 14 '15
Bad not to do it as vaccins are gratis for all kids like social security too - it won't cost a single cent

Only more fortunate pay for social security - like hospital or dr. Cares too... I think there is a small fee to be payed by yourself for hospital - like 1 euro a day - and 1 or 2 euros for a doctor visit....

The Forum post is edited by Kimo Dec 14 '15
wind090 Dec 14 '15
How it is with the hospital I don't realy know as I avoid those places like the devil the holy water! (But I guess there is a small fee.) For a visit at the doctor we are to pay nothing additional to our helth insurance. (Only the ones with a private insurance pay the doctor's bills, but will get most back from their insurance) So usually you've no problems unless the doctor prescribes something the insurance doesn't pay. ...but usually the things you need are paid by the insurance. So f.i. today I had a MRI and didn't have to pay anything.   


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